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Making Wine with Frozen Grapes Is it the same as Fresh Grapes?

2014 July 24

The idea of getting Frozen Grapes actually Grapes destemmed and crushed has some excellent advantages  However all may not be the perfect picture you might imagine.   There are pitfalls as well.   Let’s talk about the advantages.   Probably the best one is being able to get grapes to a location where fresh grapes are not available.  The second is for a winemaker who has a logistic or timing problem where he cannot take delivery for fresh grapes or he cares to do a co-ferment and all the fresh grapes do not arrive at the same time or he wants to make wine at another time during the year.    Having Frozen Must also eliminates the need to do a cold soak  if that is the winemakers’s choice.  In addition one of the best advantages is getting Super Quality Vineyard Specific Grapes from distributors like Peter Brehm is the grapes are processed the same day as harvested.

Now for the negatives.   Not to be paranoid but I like my crusher completely sanitized before crushing my grapes.  A Crusher used for many hours even days not in my control makes me worry.   I know Frankie Juice and M&M Grape takes care of this so it is one worry I don’t need to have.  I like to see my grapes and evaluate them again Frankie Juice at M&M Grape takes pictures and gives me a verbal analysis besides performing the typical post crush testing.   Adding SO2 before the grapes are frozen is within parameters as to not interfere with ML:F is another concern one should have. The last concern I have when the grapes are in the hands of the distributor is how fast and good is the refrigeration to freeze the grapes as quickly as possible limiting bacterial growth.

Now on the other end of the supply chain when the winemaker receives the Frozen Must he must be prepared for at least the following.  There is going to be a long span of time before you get to the end of lag phase.   Getting the Must up to temperature is not not a simple task when you have a half ton of slush sitting in a vat. Another thing due the the freezing and thawing process be aware if you had any idea of a whole berry or semi whole berry crush fogetaboutit.    You will have basically Ugly Mash.   And Mash does not allow you to control tannin extraction especially if you a fermenting a high tannic grape nor does it allow you evaluate as much as you would a Fresh Grape Must.

Other issues are obvious it is expensive to ship frozen Must based on the per gallon of wine produced from a pail besides the cost of handling the grapes and for freezing.  But it does offer for the Amateur the opportunity to make world class wine otherwise not possible.  And that is all that matters.



Real Wine vs Kit Wine how Wine Competitions Work

2014 July 23

Before Seth goes off the hinges I thought we could have a reasonable discussion on the issue of Wine Competitions which merge Real Wine with Kit Wine. Make no mistake I know that is an inflammatory statement and headline but it is my ball and if you want to play you have to deal with it. One thing it will create an expanded readership which happens to be one of my goals. After all maybe those reading should consider us the National Enquirer and not USA Today. (Which the former  happens to be more accurate lately) Anyway I really don’t have much to add to the subject other than to learn some intricacies Zac can provide. If you yearn for inflammatory posts and need an adrenalin rush  then search “competitions” in the search box of this blog.

Take it away Zac




Working with high Brix grapes

2014 July 4

The drought conditions and heat wave in California this season may have pushed harvest up about 3 weeks in some areas, reports of smaller crops have some winemakers concerned, smaller crops usually mean higher prices.

After hearing about potential higher brix grapes several times, including Gene posting about it (I figure that Gene has the inside scoop on grapes), it has me thinking…

How will I work with high brix grapes?                                                                                                                                                            
I would think that high brix would be considered 28+ Brix, last fall I didn’t have any issues working with Sangiovese that came in at just over 26 brix, as a matter of fact, I didn’t do anything differently.

With grapes that could potentially come in at 28 Brix or higher, (this is just a number I’m using since no one really thought that 26 brix was pushing the envelope too far, this is hypothetical) I think that the three most likely methods of working with such grapes would be:  Ferment at the higher brix , Saignee , or Dilution.

All three methods can pose their own problems –                                                          

Fermenting a High Brix must – All of the research that I’ve done online has been focusing on healthy fermentations, everything that we all normally do, using a hydration nutrient, selecting a yeast that has a higher alcohol tolerate, hydrating the yeast at proper temps, tempering the yeast prior to pitching, using a proper yeast nutrient and additions, and adding oxygen,
I realize that none of this is new or earth shattering, but I wanted to emphasize this to make a point that all of the advice given here is spot on and no different than the recommendations given from the experts at Scott labs and Lallemand. 
A big issue would be getting a wine with such high Brix through MLF, assuming that we are dealing with 28 Brix, at 15% ABV or higher, it would be pushing the limits of the Alcohol tolerance for most strains.                    

Saignee – Although I’ve never done this, I can only imagine that after removing a percentage of the wine and adding water to lower the Brix (I assume it would be acidulated water depending on the ), that the biggest concern would be diluting the concentration of acids and overall flavors.
Depending on how much it would be diluted, selecting a MLB with a higher alcohol tolerance would be necessary.      

Dilution – Again, I can imagine that the only disadvantage of diluting the must in order to lower the Brix would be diluting the concentration of acids and overall flavors.
Once again, depending on how much it would be diluted, selecting a MLB with a higher alcohol tolerance would be necessary.

I’m interested in hearing your experiences, how would deal with, or how you have dealt with high brix grapes, what were the advantages and disadvantages.


Sourcing Wine Grapes in the Northeast 2014

2014 June 26

Every year we start off the season with this piece. While it is still early I can report to my fellow winemakers we are in very good shape for the upcoming season. Of course we could have weather setbacks but if all continues as is we can count on the following things. First off Lanza grapes as most others will be in early and all at once like last year. I am told we can expect even better quality from Lanza as the crop load is less than last year which translates into better ripening. One should also consider higher Brix levels as a distinct possibility.

The sources of our Napa grapes remain the same as last year . With the possible additions of Merlot and Pinot Noir from Los Carnaros. I hope it comes to fruition as all of really have enjoyed these 2 varietals from that AVA.
From Alexander Valley there will be the Steward Ranch Cab Sav we made in 2011. Everyone is very pleased how this wine developed so we have the opportunity to go there again this year. But another amazing surprise is in the making from Sonoma from a very old and prestigious vineyard. I am pinching myself hoping this happens.

For a first time Lanza Vineyards will have 2 new varietals this year including Petite Verdot and Mourvedre.

When I speak again to Frank Musto of the M&M Grape Company I will update this page and report all the latest information on the upcoming season. So far it looks like it is going to be a doozie! I wish I could reveal more but I cannot publish it here at this time. Stay tuned

Fermentation Temperature One more thing to think about.

2014 June 24

I was reading Winemakingtalk .com for inspiration and oddly enough I found some in a thread discussing fermentation temperatures. The discussion centering around what grape would do best at a certain fermentation temperature. I know the expression “ Nobody is talking about the Elephant in the Room” but this thread was more like a room full of Elephants and the people in the room were trying to get to the other side without even acknowledging any of the Elephants. After reading and biting my tongue a few times I decide to go to the blog and use our search engine to see what we had on the subject.

The Search Results brought up numerous posts going back to 2010 on the subject but while the subject of fermentation temperatures are mentioned and discussed relating to a specific issue there is no stand-alone piece on the subject. So in the interest of providing as much information on fermentation temperature in one place I think it will be a good idea if we have this conversation in depth.

I know there will be many responses and I also know this topic is multi-faceted and loaded with various techniques and styles. So to begin before we all go off in the weeds let’s at least begin with some basic standard information that we all agree on. After we exhaust these then we can get in to the nuances and esoteric stuff if it suits you.

I will begin with the following:

Red wines

To lock in good color and extraction one should try to get a heat spike of 85 degrees somewhere between 18 and 12 brix.

To avoid residual sugar you are better off fermenting over 80 degrees than below.

You have a better chance of blowing off H2S above 80 degrees than below.

You are better off reducing vegetal character over 80 degrees if grapes are not as ripe as they should be.

White Wines

As a general rule White Grapes benefit from low fermenting temperatures as low as 65 degrees in some cases. However it is not uncommon for whites to be fermented in the 80’s.

Most yeasts can ferment at temperatures will over the stated temperatures on the product sheet for the specific yeast.

Well I suppose this is a good start for the conversation at least it recognizes the Elephants.

Malolactic Fermentation and high SO2 wines

2014 June 14
by Gaetano

Are the SO2 tolerances accurate or is VP41 just that good?

First a little back story:

At the risk of being laughed off the blog, I’ll admit it, I bought Chilean grapes from our friends at M&M, the Cabernet Sauvignon, Malbec and Cabernet Franc were beautiful, free of any major rot, all coming in at 23-24 brix, while the Merlot wasn’t as nice, much more rot, but with a little help, we were able to discard as much rot as we found.

I tested the PH, TA and SO2 with my Vinemetrica SC-300 using fresh solutions, and again, even though I’ve read about the high SO2 levels that you’ve run into in the past, I really didn’t think that the SO2 levels would be off the chart, I didn’t have to add more than 3 or 4 drops of the titrant before the SC-300 started to beep like crazy indicating that the test was complete.  Using the formula to calculate the ppl (or mg/l), this must was registering at 100 ppm or more!

I had no issues fermenting after a cold soak,  but I still was very concerned at the upcoming  MLF. After the alcoholic fermentation and pressing was complete, I tested the 3 separate batches of wine again getting the exact same results, to be honest, I didn’t think that MLF had a chance,  Lalvin lists the SO2 tolerances for VP41 as  SO2 tolerance : up to 60 mg/L total SO2.

I decided to use 1/2 gram of MLB per carboy in an attempt to compensate for the high level of SO2, I hydrated with Act-ML and added Opti’Malo to the carboys and hoped for the best. I was a bit shocked when I checked on the carboys the next morning, not only had MLF started, (on all except for the Malbec) it is one of the most active MLF that I’ve seen. I pitched another small dose of VP41 into the Malbec and it started as well.

So again,  is “ SO2 tolerance : up to 60 mg/L total SO2“ a tolerance level with a little wiggle room in it, or is VP41 just that good? My guess is a little bit of both, but I’ve been using VP41 on all of my reds and haven’t had any issues so far.

Any thoughts?


Malolatic Fermentation Before Alcohol Fermentation. No Sulfites too! Who Says?

2014 May 31

Chr. Hansen claims its new wine culture is a ‘fantastic launch’ that will greatly increase the speed and predictability of malolactic fermentation and remove the need for producers to use sulfites as preservatives

You think you have everything figured out and then someone comes along a upsets the Apple Cart.  So now we have a new advancement.  Does it apply to us?   Not sure but I have some serious questions?   With no SO2 how does one keep juice from fermenting for 10 days?  And at what temperature does one perform this MLF.  Can you trust the competition the ML Bacteria provides?  Lots of questions but probably the most interesting development in winemaking procedure in a long time.

Just a side note I never like Chr Hansen Oenococcus Oeni  have not used it since Alpha arrived many moons ago.  Slow as shit.  Always.  Just Say’in



When Politics and Junk Science mixes with Winemaking It can’t go unchallenged.

2014 May 13

Those who know me and those who don’t other than reading this blog I am sure will have no trouble imagining I am as outspoken about Politics as I am about Winemaking from time to time.   I try very hard to keep my politics off this blog.  And I think I do a good job of that too. Which could be considered quite an accomplishment.   Nevertheless when Horse Shit reaches the website with a regurgitation of a fear inducing demise of the planet report by a group of scientists who would rather ignore real scientific study and facts I think it is worth commenting about it here.

You can read the demise of Earth here but you probably heard it already on every lame stream media outlet near you.

Take cover we are all goners.

But what you won’t hear or read is this.

I think it would be wise if the editors of get all the facts before they join the ranks of the hysterical.


The 2014 Season is coming up soon. Thoughts and directions

2014 May 7

I know it is a bit early for this discussion but maybe not.   As we look forward, first let’s look back a bit.   Since 2007 and more so in 2009 we have sourced the finest grapes California has to offer to date.   We have made wine from some of the most prestigious vineyards in the United States of America.  And how did we approach this?  As Frenchmen?  Not a chance.  We made, dare we even think of field blending a Beckstoffer, in the tradition of California, single varietal wines.   Beautiful ones at that.

There is no reason I can think of to change that approach for this coming vintage.  Simply we go for the best grapes and we make varietals as we have done in the past.  Why change?  It is hard to see why.   But maybe we need to take another look at this from a different perspective or at least give this a thought.

I am drawn to this not trying to become a Frenchman even if my name might lead you to think so.  No I am drawn to this from a wine made in 2011. My GSM.   This wine a field blend of the standard varietals as stated in the name in Hungarian and French Oak is a gift that keeps on giving.   From the first Barrel Sample at one of our wine dinners to the next occasion in the Fall of 20132 where the Hungarian version was a crowd pleaser. Recently the French version of this fabulous wine made its way to our club dinner this April and again it received accolades.  Make no mistake I am thrilled because truthfully I love it too.  So as the winemaker I think.   These were not Napa Grapes or Suisun either.   Paso Robles yes and dare I say Lodi too.

The latest experience was this past weekend I had the opportunity to let some folks taste some recently bottled wines.  A 2010 G 3 Cab Sav, a Carneros Merlot and the GSM.  I was particularly interested in the reactions.  The wines were well received but there was a draw to the GSM and the comments while very complementary for all the wines it was the GSM that somehow created the most conversation.   So what is with this wine?  This got me to thinking.

The only thing besides its approachability is balance.   The wine for me is balanced in all respects.  So maybe this upcoming year the goal should be to focus on the concept of Balance.   I throw this out here for discussion among all of you but for me I am thinking it almost seems a logical step in the evolution of this winemaker.   How we achieve this remains to be seen but one thing for sure you won’t find this discussion or thoughts on

The key word for 2014   Balance and its Expert JoesWine A disaster putting it mildly

2014 May 6

As much as I try I cannot believe the crap this guy JoesWine espouses on which goes unchallenged.   Among his pontificatations  including using Raisins during MLF  and other advice  which defy logic his latest advice to a new fresh grape winemaker cannot go without comment.  Joe stick with the kits you make and leave the real winemakers to solve issues as they come up.  It is obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.  Joe so just shut up.  OK?

The winemaker poses the question…and says ….I racked a Pinot Grigio yesterday that was made from a juice bucket I bought in the fall. This was the second tracking while ageing and it still seems to be a little cloudy. This is my first attempt at a white wine. Should I be concerned or will it clear on itself. The pH and S 02 levels are fine .

Here is his advice to a guy who is trying to clear a 1013 Pinot Grigio….   ”


Seriously Joe where do you get your information?  Not Through a Pumping System?   Advice to filter at 1 micron ( advice already given) and probably needing .45 micron would not be a bad step either.   No Joe it is not going to strip flavor.   It is really part of the process of making White Wine.  But more importantly you fail to mention using Bentonite FIRST but amazingly advise to forgo filtering and advice to to use SuperKleer.   Joe you need a lesson in basic fining before you give advice.  Bentonite as a fining agent has the least effect on flavor and taste, Superkleer should be considered a second line of defense when Bentonite fails.  And the reason Bentonite  could fail to clear the wine is the lack of tannin in the wine  to remove Protein.  Which the first step of  Superkleer provides.  So in short before filter your wine you use bentonite  then you rack and filter starting with 1 micron and if you desire the Wine Store Gleaming Polished look you end up with a final .25micron filter.
Now on to the Pectic Haze you mention.  It is a protein haze and nothing is better than bentonite with its negative charge to combat a positive charge protein.  Again it is pretty clear you have no understanding of the entire process.  And then on to the temperature issue you mention. Did you mean to say if the wine was too cold?   Well if so instead of asking why not say fine with bentonite during cold stablization?   Why Joe?   My guess you don’t have a clue.  a danger to the Amateur Winemaker once again.  and Joeswine especially.  Joe  do everyone a favor and make kits and take pretty pictures when you do.  And above all don’t forget the raisins, but leave the real winemaking to serious Amateurs not old wives tails you seem to embrace all of the time.
So sick of that forum.  Really It can’t get better than this…

2014 May 4
by Gene Fiorot

Holy Cow!   What in the world?…..

Getting up close and personal with Bacchus the Wine God Volatile Acid, Barrels and all.

2014 April 15






Back in the Sunshine State Beautiful! I have to tell you a few outcomes to wit occurred after the Bacchanalia. During the week prior to the Bacchanalia, Anthony and I were adding 1 additional 60 Gallon Barrel to his cellar. We have been using Re-Coops ( the real ones) and this latest barrel coopered by a very prestigious French Cooper was the latest to add to the collection. While we have a few more in the garage waiting to go on line this one was around for about 2 years. Needless to say one could expect this one was not going to seal up quickly as most of the moisture in the wood would be long gone. Even with this assessment I have been fooled before finding an equally older barrel stored in worse conditions seal up from the get go with no problem. This was not going to be the case this time.

Now I know many have their rituals about how to do barrel re hydration. Personally I think most of it is bunk. Barrel plus water equals sealed barrel. Anyway… It is a bit cold in Katonah NY and the well water is very cold as well. Anthony attempts to fill the barrel on Sunday. It is leaking worse than a 1957 Chris Craft Lapstreak Boat in the Spring time. He can’t even get the water level 1/4 way up. He leaves the water on for 4 hours to no avail. Worried about his Well and Well Pump he shuts the water off for the evening and attempts to fill it again on Monday morning. No Luck, water is pouring out everywhere. He shuts the water off and in the afternoon he then tries again for a few hours. This time he gets the water level up to 1/4! Progress! Again forced to shut the water off he does not try to fill it until the morning and again the barrel is empty and he is able to get it up to 1/4 before going to work. After work he gives it another try. Same results and again the water is shut down for the night. Wednesday arrives and Anthony and I have a day of bottling ahead of us. When I get to the house in the AM I find the barrel about 1/2 way filled. I think good it is getting better. We bottle all day and by the afternoon the barrel is now filled only with the hose on full blast. Well I think things are getting better but the water is squirting out the sides like in a Cartoon. Then I think the best thing to do, thinking of Sandor, is to use hot water. Unfortunately there is no hot water available where we are. Still concerned about running the Well all night we decide Anthony will take the barrel to my winery where I have hot water and city water as well if I want to let it run. That is the plan. It is now Thursday the night of Bacchanalia. The Barrel has been in Anthony’s car all day and he brings it to me that evening.

Leaving the Barrel empty we go to Bacchanalia. Now we all know about Baccus the Wine God and his Bacchanalia. Anything can happen as it often does at these events. As we are all tasting samples of wine from the winemakers , Al Battista shares his 2012 Lanza Gamay. I taste, others taste, we all taste again and say VA Holy Cow Al this wine has VA. IF you know Al he is fastidious about his cellar operations. Make no mistake about that. It really can’t be but there is no doubt this wine has VA. Most of us are shocked and saddened by the thought that this lovely wine has a VA nose. It hadn’t gone to the taste yet. Well of course Al is upset and looking for advice what to do. Some of us offer to SO2 the shit out of it and bottle it and drink it quickly, blend it to get it below the sensory threshold and get rid of the barrel too. All good advice, now left up to Al the Winemaker.
What Bacchus gives he takes away.

The next morning I go into the winery and look at the 57 Chris Craft and wonder it this thing will ever stop leaking. Not wasting any time I run a hot water hose out and begin the fill the barrel. I wait for the leaks to start. No leaks. I look inside I am ½ way up . Still no leaks. ¾ no leaks. Filled no leaks and better NO DAMP SPOTS either! Wow! And I know it is not the hot water either. It sits all day and not a drop not from the heads not from the staves nothing. Why I wonder. Did the day in Anthony’s Car in the heat swell it? OR was it Bacchus shinning favorably on us.

Later that morning I hear from Al. He has decided to scrap the barrel and make a planter out of it not wanting to take any chances with a new wine going in. Good idea I think. Then he says he is going to remove the wine and put it in carboys while he decides what to do with it. I remind him to give it a healthy dose of So2.
A few hours later Al calls me and is excited. The VA is no longer in the wine! It is good. I say hmmmm wishful thinking? I suggest he take a bottle and have it for dinner and have others taste it. Just to be sure. He calls the next day and reports the Wine is fine. Confused about this I will admit, I won’t look a gift horse in the mouth either. Thank you God Bacchus.

So what have you learned by reading this? Me, I have learned Bacchus takes a barrel for a barrel and fixes a wine because we honored his presence at our Bacchanalia.

I just wish he would just fix the freekin 2013 Chilean Malbec. Praying everyday.

Springtime Bacchanalia 2014

2014 April 11

Holy Cow! What an evening at Restorante Chianti for the Westchester Amateur Winemakers Club.    All winemakers attending, no guests, wives and  or insignificant others invited.  Purpose, to taste wines of 2013, wines going in Barrels and wines just coming out.  Taste, compare, discuss, just give honest feedback.  Say what you think, no holding back an opportunity to get feedback and learn.  Perfect.  Bottles in attendance 80 at least.  Glasses who can count but I am sure the dishwasher is glad we don’t do this every week.   The food, what can you say besides excellent as usual, I think we are spoiled.  But Chef Paul Caputo spoils us every time.

So what stood out.   The fellas have the Lanza grapes down to a science.   One is better than another.   The latest grapes brought in by Frank Musto and M&M from Napa are no slouches to Beckstoffer in any way.   The level of quality of the wines produced in general really begs the use on the moniker “Homemade”  I hate hearing it and I try to never say it.   They are simply seriously crafted  wines made by winemakers who have foregone  commercial winemaking employment.  I like that better.  But Amateurs will do.   There could be pictures coming, cells phones were popping but I have no idea who took them.   Maybe they will email them to me and I can post them here.

Thanks to all who came and we look forward to our Fall Extravaganza.   For now we digest and use what we learned going forward.   In the meantime I will pray for another shot at Silverado Six and hope we get a Sonoma Cab Sav which at this time I cannot reveal the name.  And I didn’t, I guess I wasn’t that inebriated after all.

2014 Spring Time Racking and Bottling…Successes, Trials, Tribulations, Failures and Mysteries

2014 April 2
by Gene Fiorot

We all have wine chores to accomplish during the Spring and for me this Spring is no different.  With some members help, I bottled my 2010 Beckstoffer Cabernet Sauvignon, the 2011 GSM this time from French Oak and my 2011 Beckstoffer Los Carneros Merlot.   We also racked 2013 wines into barrels and racked and filtered the Sauvignon Blanc and Pinot Grigio for bottling this upcoming weekend.  With all this accomplished all that is left to do is to check the refrigeration and make an list of supplies that will be needed in the Fall.

I did have refrigeration issues last  Summer and I had some concerns about the wine.  All turned out fine and I can tell you I am relieved.   I racked the infamous 2013 Malbec into a French Barrel.  It is earthy and I am not sure it is 100% cured of H2S.   We shall see what the  Barrel can accomplish.   I remind myself of a 1997 Sangiovese that was the same going in to a barrel and came out 1 year later and won a Gold.  So I am hoping patience will be the cure.   All else is fine in the Micro Winery.

One thing about making wine just when you think you have it all figured out every so often something comes along to remind you that you are not infallible.  Sometimes I think some of our members think this way, I try to warn them but they don’t listen. Now on to a failure and mystery.   One of our new members made wine from fresh juice.  One of the two varietals one was a Petite Sirah.  He followed all the directions and followed the protocols to the Tee.   Last month he called me and said of all the juice wines he had made in the past this was the best wine ever.  I was happy for him.  He came down to the winery this past weekend with samples.  The wine was undrinkable.  Swamp Water is being kind.   Pickling Juice and maybe sauerkraut could come to mind.  Not only Taste but odor as well.   Was it all the 10 Carboys we have yet to learn this.  I can tell you it was not the VA thing nor was it oxidized.  At least it didn’t follow the typical nose for those flaws.   But this is beyond a flaw.   How can a wine do this in 30 days?  What is the cause? Is it a bad lactic bacteria from MLF?   It is a mystery to me.  Any thoughts? The PumpkinMan’s demise

2014 March 30

Those of you who read that forum for grins might have noticed in the past months a new contributor and moderator named PumpkinMan.  This Pumpkinman was a quick study, rising from a contributor to Super Moderator within weeks.   Quite an achievement since the moderators on that forum usually are threatened by anyone who posts intelligently.   And make no mistake PumpkinMan did exactly that.  His posts were both educational and helpful to Amateur Winemakers who had the misfortune to find and believe in some of the lousy advice constantly reported there.   But like anything which might be positive and good for Amateur Winemaking it has a very short life on that forum. Typically and expected PumpkinMan was BANNED FOR LIFE.   He joins an austere group of Amateurs who met the same fate at the hands of the morons who run that forum.  But PumpkinMan fear not you are in good company now.   I also think it is worth mentioning there are 2 moderators from who for lack of their own expertise have discovered a new way to provide information.  They regularly go to and pose a question and then return to their forum and post as if the information was theirs.   At least they could site their source.   I guess at least they are disseminating good advice which in its self is progress. But with all the bad information there how could anyone tell.  Now it is my understanding one of our members Gaetano has some very interesting information on PumpkinMan’s demise..  We wait with baited breath to here the sordid details……..