Native vs. Inoculated Yeast – An experiment
When I started making wine, I was fascinated with the yeast tables provided by the yeast suppliers of the world. I immediately went work trying all sorts of them and combinations of wines fermented separately and evaluated, then blended. Over time, I settled on those that I liked and overall I probably fall into the camp that feels yeast strain makes a difference but not a huge one. Varietals seem to react differently, for instance my Cabernet Sauvignon wines seemed to vary much less by yeast selection than Zinfandel does.
Jump forward a couple of years of personal experience and also learning more of how commercial producers make their wine. Several commercial winemakers I know routinely use native yeasts rather than inoculated strains. A couple of these wines completely knocked my socks off with their quality. With the opportunity to ask some questions, I gradually started gathering information on native fermentation practices and what people actually do vs. the marketing brochure. A couple major points:
1) Most use some SO2 at crush to control non-Saccharomyces yeasts that these are typically the yeasts that start a native fermentation.
2) Some feel that temperature control is important since vigor and temperature provided by the fermentation might not provide you with enough heat.
3) All have inoculated a problem fermentations with cultured yeast when needed. However, none felt that native fermentation is necessarily more risky if monitored.
4) Conflicting opinions on yeast efficiency, some feel more alcohol is created by cultured yeasts but most feel that it’s not significantly different.
5) Only one wine maker thought using cultured yeasts is “un-natural” and he is a passionate traditionalist. Most feel that it can provide additional complexity but inoculating is a legit practice.
6) Many debate the “native” vs. “feral” idea. That is, the yeasts origin, your winery, your vineyard, or the next fermenter across the aisle.
So with many of these points in mind, I started thinking about “going native” for an experiment using Zinfandel, with the thought that it would express the differences well. But first a disclaimer – Please don’t turn this into a “you’re an idiot to do this” thread. My intent here is to provide some data and information on my experiment. You can draw your own conclusions or not. I’m posting this here on this forum because I’m hoping the thoughts and comments don’t degenerate into an argument on the scale of filtration and natural wine. I’m not trying to convince anyone that my way is best.
Anyway, on to 2011 harvest and the experiment. This year my personal Zinfandel vines produced their first full crop. These are my first red grapes harvested of the year typically and these were harvested prior to the rain storms at normal Brix levels. For me, the major challenge for Zinfandel over other grapes is the decision to pick. It has a nasty tendency to solidify some sugar within the berry, effectively hiding it from you until 3-5 days in the juice. I learned this lesson in the past wines from other vineyards picked around 25 Brix that fermented to 17.1% alcohol due to the hidden sugars. So I have developed a fairly effective process to determine actual Zin Brix. Once I get to 22, I begin whole cluster testing of 8-10 clusters, crushed and soaked over a period of days to get the true data. This years was no different. I picked a 10 cluster sample on 9/29 at 22.8 Brix, after 24 hours of soaking it was already to 24.0. We decided to pick on 10/2. On the day before picking, I noticed the ziplock bag of the sample was inflated. On inspection, the 10 cluster sample was clearly fermenting. Thinking it through, I realized these clusters were picked and sealed in the bag in the vineyard. The yeast inside should be from the vineyard and not the winery. The gears started to turn and I released the pressure with a sniffy sniff. Sure enough, telltale signs of Kloeckera, a non-Sccharomyces yeast whose signature is production of ethyl acetate (smells like fingernail polish). But I have heard that Kloeckera is also not around very long, not very alcohol tolerant. So with this in mind, I decided that if the fermentation progressed beyond this initial non-Sacc fermentation, I would use it for a starter on an experimental batch. By the time we finished harvesting, destemming, and cold soaking a couple days, I went back to my Ziplock yeast bomb. Sure enough, it smelled of beautiful fruit, blackberry pie in the oven, no sign of stinkies. So, we split off 500 lbs. of fruit (by now Brix settled in at 25.2 Brix). We inoculated the main fermentation with Rockpile yeast (RP15) and the experiment with the sample bag/native yeast starter. By now it was 6 days along, still fermenting nicely. We used Go-Ferm on both, just adding it to some juice for the native batch rather than a regular dry yeast build up. Both also got Opti-Red additions at this time. Fermentation was pretty perfect for both. The native was 1/3 the size and in a single walled plastic tub. I typically wrap these fermenters with an electric blanket and heat them until I get a good and high max. temp. This one was no exception, I heated for 4 days until I hit a nice 90 degree peak on the native then removed heat. The larger batch on Rockpile was in a T-bin making its own heat and peaking 1 day later at 91 degrees. These are typical peak temps by my preference and not really comparable to each other. Overall, I would say the native yeast performed similar to the Rockpile. On 10/13, the native was at +2.6 Brix and Rockpile at -1.5. Both were pressed on 10/15 with the native at -.8 Brix. Both were settled 2 days and transferred to barrel (30 gal. for native). MLF was done on both in the barrel using Enoferm Alpha bacteria. No unusual smells or tastes from either fermentation.
Which brings us up to this week. I took sample of both wines to Vinquiry who verified both had completed MLF. They also measured alcohol. The native Zin was at 15.34% and the Rockpile yeast Zin at 15.13%. Interesting that the native converted .2% more alcohol from the same fruit. Next came sensory evaluation last night. Both wines have a somewhat muted nose at this point with some residual CO2. After resting for an hour and sniffing again, I would say the wines are very similar with a slight nod to the Rockpile on aroma. Taste – again the similarity was surprising. Both have typical Russian River Zin flavors of plum, blackberry, and maybe a little pomegranate. I would see all the same flavors exist in both wines although I feel the complexity and finish are slightly better on the native. The real surprise to me was the similarity of the two. I would feel more disappointed if I didn’t like them both. But it was nothing like the difference between a comparison I did in the past using Syrah yeast and D80 yeast which are quite different on Zinfandel. My wife tasted these blind with similar thoughts and comments to mine.
So what do I take away? 1) native yeast will provide similar or higher alcohol levels. 2) native fermentations can perform very similar to inoculated yeast in practice. 3) IMO, the starter buildup ad hoc process worked very well. Or maybe just provided me with training wheels.
Thoughts to ponder – I used Rockpile yeast in the main ferment. It never crossed my mind at the time that RP15 was isolated about 20 miles from my vineyard to the north from a spontaneous Syrah fermentation in the Rockpile appellation. Could it be that this strain does a good job on representing the dominate yeast floating around western Sonoma County and explains the lack of major differences in the wine character? Or, did the RP15 yeasties hop over and finish off my Zin in the winery? This seems unlikely to me since if anything, the native had a head start and really only took one more day to finish.
I welcome your thoughts and comments.
Steve Gower aka: Crazy Run Ranch
Steve Congratulations on your first Blog here at the Westchester Amateur Winemakers Club Blog. You are a welcome addition here and I already know your expertise will be called upon on from members and readers of this site. Personally I am thrilled you have joined us. For those that do not not know Steve let me say that “Crazy Run Ranch” comes with big chops. Besides being a very knowledgeable winemaker he is a Grape Grower. A skill,expertise and knowledge, we here on the East Coast lack. So let’s start with your experiment.
Your worry that the conversation will devolve into Filtration and Natural Wine. On the latter there is a good piece written by Eric Asimov in the New York Times that I will post for informational purposes which I find my self in agreement. Me, I would only change the last sentence of the piece. But that is for later.
Now I would like to begin to comment saying that as East Coast Winemakers our experience with native yeast ferments are as taboo as anyone can imagine. Let’s take a closer look. First who has performed them as a regular practice? Generally Old Timers ( I am being nice here, I want to say ignorant winemakers and their offspring) who buy Central Valley Grapes. As a result sometimes they hit the jackpot and most other times they end up with sweet wines which never fully fermented. But here Steve makes a very big distinction in his six points. Besides the enormous importance of those 6 points, we already know the ignorant don’t use Go Ferm, yeast nutrients and temperature control. However here are my first questions.
While we have long abandoned Central Valley Grapes with the farming practices performed there, do they have a proper native yeast to complete a 24 Brix fermentation?
You are aware that we purchase a good quantity of Beckstoffer and Lanza Grapes, is native yeast a better bet with these grapes that a grown with less stressed vines and lower tons/acre?
Steve your post is so rich with information and questions I will stop here reserving the right to continue. LOL
CRR, thanks for sharing this experience. The question that immediately occured to me was have you ever practiced returning your pommace to the vineyard? That is, is it possible (and I don’t know how old your vines are) that over the years you may have helped to establish your own S. cerevisiae populations in your vineyard? I ask this because from what I see published, S. cerevisiae is present in extremely small quantities among the native vineyard microflora, on the order of 1 cell per 100mL – 1 cell per liter. Such a low S. cerevisiae biomass, would predict a more protracted fermentation than what you’ve described above.
Thanks Gene and D&S. The questions you both pose are excellent and I wish I could answer them definitively. A major motivation for me to do this project was to develop my own experience with using native yeasts because there are so many opposing views. I’ve read dozen of opinions from people on both extremes, those that say never do it and those who say they always do and make better wine. Then the discussion of native vs. feral vs. innoculated comes up. Feral yeast is the idea that what we are considering “native”, is actually innoculated yeast gone wild. Possibly through return of skins to the vineyard after fermentation.
So about the CV, I would guess that there would be strong native yeast there. While some high tonnage CV grapes may suffer in quality, I doubt their practices reduce yeast populations. But I have never made grapes from there so opinion only. For Lanza and Beckstoffer, I would certainly think populations are strong there too since they are major grape growing areas. But would good vineyard practices nurture better, stronger yeasts? I don’t think anyone can answer that.
D&S, yes, I have returned pommace to the vineyard. But, only after composting over the winter. Grape skins and stems make excellent compost and I try to avoid returning anything that isn’t thoroughly composted to avoid transferring mold food into the vineyard. My mildew spray regime varies from year to year based on mold pressure. But I will tell you that the big guns (systemic fungicide) have come out in both 2010 and 2011. I try to use organic products if possible but the last couple years have been tough ones. It is not my opinion that fungicides kill your native yeast populations.
Let me start by saying that when I started making wine we did it the old world way for years thats what dad taught us we crushed central valley grapes back then there was no hi end grapes here on the east coast.Back then I hated wine it was strong and harsh but my dad did use sulphites to preserve his wine some times it went to vinegar that is why i have a 30 gallon Barell of it. It was hit or mist the way it came out. Then are brother started reading wine making books. He started using yeast. Pasture red matter of fact and the wine started to taste better it would go thru natural mlf in are wine cellar. Now we make wine the new world way what a difference . I still have friends and realatives that still make wine they call it natural no sh##t in my wine there’s afew of them that make half way decent wine and they have a/c units in there wine cellar. Some of them make wine and it taste like swamp skunk I have no other way of putting it.I’ve noticed that some of the better wine makers, there wine taste half way deceant till Easter time and then you get the vinegarette flavor to it They do not taste it because they drink it all the time and also you taste the sizzle in it because it’s still going thru mlf. Now if wanto do another experiment this coming fall do 5 gallons and do it completlely natural no yeast, no mlf culture.no k-meta then come back and tell us what you think and make sure that your’e brix level does not go above 24 or 25 brix your’e natural yeast will probably poop out around 1 to 2 brix.Nice experiment you did by the wayCRR. I will never go back to the old ways of making wine. Just my 2 cents.
Lots here to discuss. Lets start with “Kloeckera, a non-Sccharomyces yeast whose signature is production of ethyl acetate (smells like fingernail polish)”. I was not familiar with this yeast name. But I have been introduced to ethyl acetate years ago when I worked at a Grape/ Equipment distributor in Westchester. There were many used Barrels for sale that when you opened the bung and put your nose in the hole was your first thought after picking yourself off the ground was this barrel must have stored Acetone at a local Body Shop. But out the door they went to all the unsuspecting winemakers. How Sad. But if I understand you correctly this yeast dies quickly and the native Sccharomyces yeast takes over as you describe.
This year I came as close to a Native Yeast fermentation than I ever hoped to. I received a ton of frozen must and my mistake looking back was I placed the must all together in a Vat. I should have let them thaw in the buckets separately because it took 5 days keeping the fermenting room at 90 to get the must to 60 degrees. As it approached 55 I did notice some slight activity. I was waiting to get to 60 to temper and pitch my culture. the activity seem to increase and I had pitched already pitched Fermaid O. I got really concerned that I had this wild thing growing although nothing smelled off. I called Greg Perucci to ask him if I should be in panic mode. He rightfully told me no since my culture when pitched would over power what was going on. He also added that he sees many times a reduction of 2 brix before the commercial culture takes over. So I was relieved.
All this also makes me think of the Combo Yeast sold by Gusmer that allows a start of Wild Yeasts and then the conventional ones to finish. I think that product became available a few years ago. I think I blogged about it here. It is sold under the CHR Hansen name there are 5 varieties.
You do mention using external heat sources. I was wondering about the ambient temps when you did this experiment. Here on the East Coast this year we were fermenting to December 1 and we had to keep the fermenting room warm and wrap the vats with insulation in order to get the Temp Profile.
Sometimes people attempting to show you what to do, end up giving you an example of what not to do, LOL! I have no doubt that some pretty good grapes could wind up as bad wine if neglected. That’s why I really tried to keep my experiment equivalent in other ways, yeast nutrients, lots of O2, adding some heat. I was really surprised by how normal it behaved and didn’t struggle to get to 15.3% from 25.2 Brix.
I knew of Kloeckera by smell long before by name. I have danced around a native ferment in the past. My Petite Sirah just wants to become wine. I can cold soak it at 50 degrees for a couple days but it will start to kick if left. But when it goes from sweet smelling to Kloeckera, I have always got nervous and innoculated. I don’t have as much of this fruit and it is usually excellent quality, so I waited to do this on Zin when I had extra. A couple of really sharp pros I know use a microscope in their lab to quantify the yeast types present in juice before fermentation. No doubt this is the best way, I just don’t have a desire to learn all that biology. I’m not sure that the ethyl acetate smell in a barrel is from the yeast or from alcohol being oxidized and forming the compound. Interesting though, maybe it is the from the yeast.
Temperature, you would be surprised how quickly it cools down here after harvest. My ambient in the fermentation room was in the mid-60′s during fermentation. The building is well insulated so doesn’t see a huge differential day to night. But if needed, night time temps are low 50′s, high 40′s. I use electric blankets wrapped on the fermenter with insulating blankets over that. Once we hit the target peak, then I pull the blankets and let it drop down. Occasionally, I’ll get one that takes off like a shot and keeps rising. Those guys get to spend a night outside which usually brings them back down.
Steve you wrote, “Varietals seem to react differently, for instance my Cabernet Sauvignon wines seemed to vary much less by yeast selection than Zinfandel does.” Can you expand on this with some specifics that you have found for Zinfandel? My experience has been with a Combo Blended D80 D 254, Fermirouge and Rock Pile. I have not made comparisons on these however with the same grapes. Recently I find myself liking Rock Pile if for anything the fermentation kinetics alone.
I used a D80/Syrah (the yeast) combo for several years before switching to Rockpile most of the time these days. Syrah and D254 tend to produce a nice mouthfeel and big fruit which I felt needed to be balance by D80′s spice and structure. But then I switched to Rockpile and to me it does a great job of capturing all those things. And like you said, it is an excellent fermenter. I used it in the comparison with the native because it is my go-to yeast for Zin. Maybe one of these days I’ll try BM4x4 on Zin, it does a nice job with Sangiovese.
I have used BM 4×4 on Sangiovese the last 2 times I made it. It is Greg’s favorite for Sangiovese and none of the problems of BM45. But getting back to your experiment I get the feeling that while you were successful, you will probably leave this as an experiment and not make it a practice. Based on your results I do not see an advantage for a native ferment. But I have to admit that I would not have predicted your results turning out the way it did. I have a small plot of land a former vegetable garden. At least for the past 4 years I have been dumping the pomace in it. It is a mine field of yeasts! I was thinking of planting some Cab Franc Vines this spring. It seems to do well it this location (6B) is what I am told. But that is for another post.
My results where surprising to me. I expected to like one a great deal more than the other and this just isn’t the case. I am going to pour it blind for a few other palettes to try and get more feedback. I will likely end up blending this 30 gallons with the other lot because I need the barrel for another project. So I may experiment more with this in the future, probably with Syrah, but I don’t see going all native at this point. IMO, innoculated wines are just as “natural” as those produced with native yeasts. I have no philosophical preference. I just want to make the best wine I can.
cool experiment .
I suspect that many parts of california have established pretty good feral populations over the last 40 years , being one of the largest grape growing areas on earth.
in a less established area , with a larger native and not feral population you might struggle to reach a complete fermentation free of funk and va.
I’ve been tempted to go native , although I also have memories of lots of bad “uncle tony” wine. I have 3 uncle Tonys . My mum has 6 brother and sisters and she’s the only one who didn’t marry an italian.
my uncles all bought the cheapest cv grapes , as did I when I first started out , although I always used sulfite and cultured yeast where as they took a more crush and forget approach.
my uncles wines always had rs and were cloudy , as the yeast usually crapped out before it went dry . my guess is when the wine hit 10-11 percent alcohol. not a hard number to hit with CV zinfadel and Carigian.
Since I convinced them to start using 1118 and sulfite (and this took years of making better wine than them) they all have much better results .
so with that in mind I have done a couple experiments going partialy native or feral.
I did a batch of pinot noir where I let the native ferment start , I sulfited to 30ppm at crush.
added opti red and go ferm to the must , and fermaid k after lag and let the ferment go for 1/3 dry .
then I pitched my d80 and added some more fermaid K.
my intent was to get some additional completity and earthy wildness in th epinot but let the wine finnish with a reliable yeast that would take it to dry ness.
I didn’t do a control batch next to it but will in my next experiment . but I think I acheived the result I was looking for, with a safety net.
Thanks for shareing , you make me want to experiment some more.
Great piece Steve! I wish I lived in California and could plant some vines instead of being limited to a summer vegetable garden here in New York.
I love the experiment but I doubt I would every have the balls to ever attempt something like that on a large scale.
Similar to Zac, I have been surrounded by Italian winemakers in my youth who did not use sulfite or cultured yeasts. Some of the wine was RS and off odors. My father’s wine compared to others was actually pretty consistent. I think it had to do more with the temperature of his cellar compared to that of others. I think many of these immigrant Italian winemakers did not realize the importance of temperature during ferment. In New York where are fall temperatures can get low, you have to get that must temp up if you want to go native. Otherwise the must would go partially rancid before fermentation took off – I am sure this happened to many of these winemakers.
Well I have been thinking about planting some vines. Paul Gatti who is the Assistant Winemaker at the Millbrook Winery could help us out. MillBrook is about an hour south of Mario and an hour north of me. We already know that Paul grows some really nice Cab Franc.
So with a little more information maybe we could plant some vines. My region is called 6B, Millbrook and Albany are 5A.
First question is how many vines do you need to make a 15 gallon barrel of wine?
Word of the day – Apostasy.
Definition:
A total desertion of or departure from one’s religion, principles, party, cause etc…
Used in a sentence:
Gene committed apostasy when he decided to grow vitis vinfera grapes in New York!
Someone make sure Northernwiner has’nt body snatched Gene.
if I was going to attempt red vinifera there , I’d probably go with Zweigelt over cab franc , it buds later ripens earlier and doesn’t taste like cale and green peppers .
carot noir and noiret are probably much better choices in that climate than pure vinifera
unless you are a masochist !! LOL
Years ago I read a little on corot noir and noiret on some Cornell University Extension site. I know those grapes have been planted but I haven’t tasted any of those wines. Never heard of Zweigelt – Is that planted in Canada?
http://ngr.ucdavis.edu/varietyview.cfm?varietynum=2880
http://ngr.ucdavis.edu/varietyview.cfm?varietynum=3160
http://ngr.ucdavis.edu/varietyview.cfm?varietynum=3657
OH Boy I guess I opened myself up for that one. Gee Can’t a guy even dream of an Estate Bottled Wine in Yonkers New York . Seriously we are talking about an experiment. And for the experiment to even be valid no matter what the grape choice we have to produce a 15 gallon barrel of wine at the end. So land is scarce what is the spacing of plants and how many do I need and how deep must you dig to prepare the site. I never had Zweigelt. I will have to try it. Steve sounds like he has quite a good size vineyard.
Don ‘t rule out chambourcin that grows well for this area that makes a nice wine. With a little blending you might have an award winner.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/dining/reviews/13wine.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.doubleavineyards.com/p-831-zweigelt-grafted.aspx
Thanks Zac I was looking at that website. Lots of info there. It would seem I would need about 15-20 vines. I have a lot of reading to do!!!! My biggest problem is not being here all year. I will have to enlist a Nephew.
Carmine did you get the email and sign in? You should be able to edit your comments now.
Carmine, I have had that chambourcin before. You are right it is alright, not sure I would go so far as to say it good enough for me to buy the grapes and make it. Or grow the grapes and make it. I would like to try the Corot Noir and Noiret – those may have some promise. I think the most practical solution is for all of us to move to California wine country.
This just happened to Mario. His comment was waiting moderation. It should have not. I do not know why. If this happens to you send me an email. Just be sure you are signed in when you comment so you sign in exactly the same way. Mario did so I am really confused over this.
A job for Anthony in the morning.
Gene, assuming you need about 250 lbs. of grapes for 15 gallons of wine, you might need more vines. I usually figure 6-10 lbs. per vine, with 6 in the first few years until the vine fully develops. Of course hybrids may have a larger yields, no experience with them. Its nice to be able to grow for quality and not agonize about dropping fruit when its needed. I know that sounds easy to say when space is not a premium but when you make wine with your fruit, you will want it to be the best it can be. I currently have about .6 acre Zin, .6 Syrah, .25 Grenache, .2 Petite and small numbers of Mouvedre and Viognier. The Grenache is actually my wine partners property, he also has about 8 more acres of bare land all plantable. But we won’t go there until there is income enough to pay for a crew. We are max’d out on what 2 guys can do. We harvested about 3.5 tons last year in a light year.
I have been reading Cox’s book and he is saying that vines need 6 foot spacing. If I need a minimum of 25 vines this will make this impossible to do in the space. Of course I can downsize my total gallon expectations. Thanks for sharing your current operation. There is a lot of work to get 3.5 tons. Something we don’t really appreciate when picking up lugs and emptying them in the crusher. Please consider taking us through a Growing Season step by step. It will be a great posting that can be constantly updated as you progress. By changing the posting date we can always move it to the top as necessary.
Depends on the vine , in Quebec frontinac and seval are often planted 1 meter apart
That is a huge difference. I will ask Paul Gatti. They grow Cab Franc in Millwood. I have had the wine and they do very nice with it.
Gene I recieved your’e email. I posted but it did not come up.CRR my other brother had noiret vines he tore them out and planted chambouricin. They are in there second year .So last year we took a ride to P.A. and he bought chambouricin grapes from a grower and they were blended with a tad of california cab sauvigion. It’s coming along very nicely.
So you plant cab franc , work your but off and occasionally get a good year .
And in the end you have cab franc!
The thin , vegetal Bordeaux usually only used for blending . Even the best Loire wines are the poor cousins of France .
Good luck with that!
For a small number of vines, I’m sure tighter spacing if fine. My rows are 7′ apart with 5′ between vines in the row. But I have to get a tractor down the row and 1 meter x 1 meter either is by hand or with a high dollar over-the-row tractor. Keep in mind that tighter spacing does not necessarily mean more fruit since the vines are usually cropped less. Local resources are always best for growing input. I’m sure things are totally different there.
OK Zac I see my idea for Cab Franc is not a good one. LOL But I am going to try a bottle of Zweigelt. If I like it then I can rethink my plan. Steve, I am being serious if you would take us through the growing season coming up as it develops. Pictures too!!!
Oops , my prejudgist bent came out.
I do enjoy a few of the best Loires , but I have had so much bad finger lakes and Niagra Cab Franc , I’ve tried alot of them , never bought a second bottle of any of them.
if you are going to try zweigelt try a couple , it varies so much in style , depending on the winemakers hand.
Some are like a pinot , and some like a heavily oaked zinfandel.
the best compare well with northern rhone wines.
Speaking to Paul Gatti today he consulted with his colleague and he felt that Gamay Noir with the rootstock 3309 is the way to go. BUT his estimation of yield per vine is 6-10 pounds. which means, at his recommendation at 5 foot spacing I will need at a minimum 30 vines. Thus putting a major strain on available land. I will have to measure tomorrow.
Speaking to Paul we both concur but he , from his first hand new experience emphasizes, it is sobering to think what goes into making a 15 gallon barrel of wine. Long before we ever get the grapes from Frank Musto and the M&M Company. We have a lot of people to thank. That’s for sure !