To Sulfite or Not to Sulfite that is the Question. Is there an Answer?
David Obrien, a new club member recently asked, “Perhaps a newby question…but I have seen the reference to Sulfite at crush in several other threads from other forums…Gene, we did not sulfite at crush? Or did I day dream through that part? Can someone explain.”
Sometimes you don’t know what you ask. But before we all begin a little history……
In the early years when information was at a premium the conventional wisdom was we Sulfite to kill the wild yeast before we started our fermentation with our selected yeast culture. That was the logic. Then we learned a few new things. One our selected yeast could overcome the wild yeast ( native yeast) with no problem. Two we learned that adding K Meta could inhibit MLF later on. So many of us surmised that since we didn’t have to kill the native yeast and we certainly didn’t want to make MLF any more difficult which was prior to the introduction of Alpha and the VP lines of ML bacteria strain. Old Habits die hard. But as time went by slowly many of us stopped the practice of sulfiting the Musts. But the story was far from over.
Then Cold Soaks came along. With them came the subject of grapes that were in poor condition when received. No use lying there were many moldy boxes at Prosperos and Corrados. Our solution was to return them or not accept them in the first place. But what if given no choice. What did others do. Along comes information the sulfiting is the only answer but at a lot higher levels than previously thought or used. Heck to MLF! We have to make wine from this stuff.
But what is happening is the idea that it is Bacteria not Native Yeast should be the focus. So we focus. And we focus because as Trendoids to some degree we now have adopted the latest chichi practice of Cold Soaking. Hmmm Cold Soaking a perfect environment for bacteria growth. So the discussion ensues. At what temperature do we keep the Must to prevent bacteria growth. And all the following posts ad infinitum about dry ice to keep Musts cool.
So that is my take on memory lane. As you asked David were you sleeping? Well not really but…. We did Cold Soak and on two occasions this past season native yeast started the ferment. In a first case, for the past 6 years this was the first time one of them developed an off odor. No I refrained going to the meta jar as the yeast culture was ready to be pitched. in the second case, a bit paranoid from the first I sulfited, lightly. No off odor developed and all continued as expected. Both Musts turned out fine.
So for ME at this time I don’t sulfite unless I see a need. And with the incredible condition we receive grapes from the M&M Grape Company, Delta Packing sourced grapes, Beckstoffer Vinyards and the unparallelled Lanza Grapes I really don’t see the need to sulfite. Cold Soaking excepted, maybe, not sure, jury is out.
So while you David think about all of this there are many here with expertise who I am sure will add their views and opinions. But one thing you can be sure about is this “To Sulfite of Not to Sulfite that is the Question” was not a newbie question at all.
Since my bros and I like to cold soak a couple of days while we run our test on brixs and ph/ta.We sulfite our must even knowing that the grapes are at tip top shape from M&M.Our wines have just been fermenting nice no problems with mlf and our wines have been fine.So why not?
To add to the conversation a 20ppm addition of sulfite should be blown off during a fermentation that reaches at least 80 degrees. Which would not interfere with MLF.
Hey Rocco I emailed your Brother about the Christmas Dinner. Are you guys coming?
I shoot for approximately 50 ppm whether I cold soak or not, and the only time I cold soak is when I’m thawing frozen must. Zac has me convinced that there really is no downside to 50ppm since it gets blown off during ferment.
I SO2 tested every batch immediately post-ferment, with Vinmetrica unit, and I got less than 5ppm every time.
Now, who knows if I’ve really got 50ppm? I think the recipe calls for 1/4 teaspoon per lug. Does that sound like 50ppm? Come to think of it, I never measured at that point. Just going on blind faith from what “the experts” have told me.
that’s actually funny now that I think of it.
Your 1/4 teaspoon is correct for a calculated 50ppm per box. My spreadsheet is set at 30ppm
To add to this. I believe it was Zac who said he feels his Whites are fresher wines when he has sulfited.
I always sulfite , this reduces the Population of potential spoilage organisms , VA and produces a cleaner more fruit forward wine , and you get a cleaner , less likely to get stuck ferment.
You will also have less browning in your white wines.
The mlf issue is a non starter as at standard 50 ppm addition levels your free so2 level post primary ferment will be zero or very near it.
IMO adding so2 at crush is good practice , not using it increases risk and potentially reduces quality.
My wines are much better since making it a standard practice .
Not Sure Gene on my end.Getting sitters 2 nights in a row and then following week with the little ones will not come easy.Night before might be a late one.Will let you know for sure.Thank you.
Rocco Last minute call by you no problem to add. Hoping you can make it.
Like posted above we also sulfite at crush as well.Dan as far as cold soaking it seems that since the grapes are so cold when we crush it takes days before we pitch yeast and start kicking the heat on them.So I think your almost not going to avoid it.Well i know some old timers that cant stand crushing there grapes when there cold so they let them sit for 3-5 days to come up to room temp.Before they crush.I think they like to do it this way because they notice a quick start on the native yeast.Then everything can go as they call it all natural and no shit in there wine.
I’m not convinced of the value of cold soak. My opinion is based mostly on what more experienced winemakers say, as I just haven’t made enough wine to compare batches. But I’m not afraid of it if it takes a few days to thaw, or some time to warm up. But I don’t have the facility to do it safely for more than the time it takes to thaw, and I’m not convinced enough to go through the hassle of dry-ice.
The one thing we learned in the beginning is sulfiting’s interference with the yeast culture. I am not a fan of waiting to build a strong culture consisting of up to 6 gallons of Must for a 1/2 ton. In the past I pulled out the Must for the culture prior to sulfiting. This is not a problem when the must is warm but if you know you have 2-3 days to get it up from the 40′s to 60 then you have to wait to take the Must for the culture. Then that Must will have been sulfited hampering the culture building.
Then again maybe Sulfited Must for Culture Building doesn’t matter that much in total time. But it certainly was a hard rule in the early days. Truthfully I have not compared to see a difference. And I see no reason not to begin again to sulfite as a matter of procedure either.
But let me wonder out loud for a minute. With all the Co2 produced isn’t that quite a hostile environment for bacteria growth? What I am saying is at the end of the day is the K meta stunning bacteria or is the Co2 from fermentation doing the job as good or better?
When the ferment gets growing the yeast along with the CO2 will take care of any unwanted colonization pretty well. Before they gain hold is the interval where the SO2 is doing the job. That is why if any off aromas or wild growth becomes evident, the yeast is pitched so it can take over and hold back any unwanted strains.
The SO2 is insignificant during a strong ferment.
Why wait to take a few gallons off? the bucket can be taken out at first, and will warm faster with less thermal mass, and can be started sooner. It all goes back in, so acid or sugar balance is not an issue and not that different a sample as far as the culture adaptation is concerned. What is the reason for waiting?
There can be 2-3 days in the interim before I build the culture. I don’t want to refrigerate the bucket while I wait.
Bucket warming 24 hrs
Build culture to 6 gal over 24 to 36 hrs.
No need to refrigerate and 2-3 days well used and less wait for the half ton.
That would be workable,No?
Ie: just do a slower build, and let the lag periods take up the time. Extend the expansion to 48 hrs even, and all you end up doing is shortening the lag on the half ton. No rush adding the culture, it is not going to spoil while left fermenting an extra day or so. The other way you are rushing the expansion to build as fast as possible.
Well Puppy there are a few things to consider here. One way around all of this to let the Culture Buckets warm up before building instead of forcing the temp up. This is actually easier than we do now. Then build the culture for 12 hours as normally done. I would not want to go any longer than that with a culture Temp of about 80. But the answer then is simple. You can temper the Culture Bucket in the Vat and when you are ready you can pitch. The Culture will cool and slow down which is no problem. So you can take off the Must sans K meta at the beginning and make the culture within 24 hours. Now the other logistical factor is “Club” timing for pressing. Always a consideration as it has to occur on weekends. It is quite a dance. And the truth is “new steps” are not adopted so easily. LOL! Unless you are Dancing with the Stars. But I just had knee surgery. Can’t help but wonder what David is thinking….
Yeah, those logistics can be a beeyatch!
I do about two tonnes split into large brute fermenters.
I sulfite and use rapidase colour at crush .
Let the brutes of reds sit overnight and in the morning hydrate my yeasts with go ferm .
I add 1/2 a Litre of the sulfited must / half a Litre of water to each hydrated yeast
Let it sit in a warm spot till lunch time and then add it to the brutes that are in my garage with the heat on.
24 hours later a cap is starting and I add my fermaid .
I have used half tone bins and these take an extra day for the cap to start .
Never seen the need to do a six gallon starter .
After doing multiple comparative batches over several years , I gave up on cold soaking and extended macerations as the results were not worth the risk and effort.
I find I get much better results using modern enzymes .
Our cold soaks are now the time frame needed to get the Must up to temperature. We crushed Cab this year and it was in the low 40s after the crush. Rocco and Carmine experience the same thing with the M&M Cold Chain in high gear. 2-3 day cold soak without choice. However if for timing reasons I need to get started quickly I ask Frank Musto to keep my grapes out of the cooler the night before. This gets the temp in the 50s after crush.
That makes sense , mine don’t see a cooler , they are picked one day and loaded in a truck the next day when I get them .
I’m in the same boat as the east coast guys – by the time fresh grapes get to me (Alberta) at the end of October they are around 2-4C (35-39F) without refrigeration. Looking at least three days to warm up in the garage(44gal brutes) before I can pitch. Like to shorten that if I can.
Has anyone built any sort of diy water/glycol immersion heater? Should be fairly easy with a rancho temp controller, pump, some sort of heat source and one of those SS cooling plates.
to warm my grapes up , I put my brute fermenters on insulation , and place one of those oil filled electric radiatiors in the center of the circle of brutes and drape moving blankets in a tent over a half dozen big brutes.
if I really want one to heat up I use a brew belt or motorcycle tire warmer around a brute.
one thing I didn’t consider was the distance alot of east coasters have their grapes shipped. This was an issue when I lived in Montreal.
given that the grapes are shipped so far it may be a couple weeks from picking to crush.
even if kept in a very cold fridge , this is alot of time for spoilage organisms to get a foot hold .
all it takes is one broken grape in a lug.
for this reason alone , sulfiting at crush is just the smart thing to do.
http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/27664/104594/Electric_Must_Warmer_-_1000W_-_Prototype
This must warmer might be handy
My brothers and I use 500 liter and 250 liter fermentation tubs when we crush we have these on indivisual pallets set on 8 inch blocks we cover the tubs with a huge tarp and have two heaters going at the same time might take 2 to 3 days to warm up and we sulfite our must just to be safe .
Zac that controller would be good if you have 1 or 2 tubs going when one warm up you can put in the other tub but when you have 5 t0 6 tubs going at once you would need a few more heat controllers.
Great find Zac…even reads in Celsius
Even though I’ve sulfited, I’ve often wondered if there are any risks in heating the must externally (baseboard/oil heater in a tent) too quickly. Don’t seem to have any issues but I find the brutes need stirring every 4-5 hours to ensure the sides don’t to get too warm.
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There was a lot to learn here and I thank you all for the education. One thing for sure…wine making is a lot about personal experience, and success that can be gotten through a variety of methods and techniques. The interesting part of all of these comments is that most focus on protecting the wine during a potentially dangerous period. Yet one post speaks to how sulfiting at crush actually helps with a more fruit forward wine. Interesting… With any luck, over the next few years while I form my own opinion based on successful experiences, I will have the good fortune of working with Mr. Yule, and picking his brain…. And keeping the rest of you in the loop to keep him honest!
Can’t have him keeping any secrets from the rest of us!
Pick all you like David. If you say, we sulfite in the fall. Your call. As Rocco said, where is the downside.
Some people don’t sulfite because they want some of the native yeasts and fauna to impact the wine and add some “complexity” .
Ideally this can work . It can also result in higher levels of VA and “muddy” flavours.
Even if you do want to ferment on the native or feral yeast , adding 20 ppm sulfite at crush is a good idea , this will knock back the bacteria and weaker yeasts a bit and still allow the stronger native or feral yeasts , which are the ones more likely to be able to ferment to dryness, to get a strong start with less competition and less VA.
Sulfating to 50 ppm and using selected yeasts will result in cleaner ferments with less problems (don’t forget your nutrient) and the quality of the fruit itself will shine through in the finished wine . Hence my fruit forward comment.
What I do to get more complexity while still letting the fruit shine through is to split the must into 3 lots for each varietal and using a different yeast in each lot . Then blend them back together after mlf.
If I then blend 3 varietals together before they go into a barrel for a year , that cab Sauvignon, merlot , cab frank blend might have had 9 yeasts used.
Using brutes instead of half tonne bins also allows the lots to warm up faster yet avoid the high heat problems big bins can have.
I should also note I pitch my yeasts while the must is still cold , rather than wait until it gets to an ideal temp to pitch.
The cap tends to form first on the heater side but punching it down distributes the more active yeast through the must , which gets the exothermic ferment going and helps things get going.
On recent trip we met a Winemaker who does exactly that let the native yeast start things going. One thing though he grows his fruit so he knows what to expect. In some ways we have now have the same opportunity with Lanza fruit. As far as pitching temp it usually is the low 60s for me and I don’t mix it in well. I let it remain on top and only punch the cap a couple of inches as to keep it warmer as a bigger cap develops and more heat is generated in that area on top.