WineMakingTalk.com Fact Check A Service of the Westchester Amateur Winemakers Club…..Dealing with Wine Barrels
2013 January 7
tags: Bre, Brett in Wine, Brett Infection, Brettanomyces, Fact Check Winemakingtalk.com, information for Amateur Winemaking, preparing a barrel for wine, rehydrating a barrel, Saving Barrel with Brett, The Westchester Amateur Winemakers Club, Westchester Amateur Winemakers Club, www.winemakingtalk.com bad advice on Go Ferm
by Gene Fiorot
As previously stated The Westchester Amateur Winemakers Club decided to provide a service to all serious Amateur Winemakers by providing a Fact-Check Service for all those who read the WinemakingTalk.com Forum. We feel it is our duty and responsibility as Amateurs to warn and correct the often mis-information and bad advice given to unsuspecting Amateurs at that Forum. It is our sincere mission to help those who by their own bad luck happen to visit the site and by no fault of their own are misguided. We hope all Members of the Westchester Amateur Winemakers Club will take this effort seriously and participate whenever possible.
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Lol , I just saw this. http://www.westchesterwinemakers.com/2012/09/26/fact-check-a-new-service-of-the-westchester-winemakers-club/comment-page-1/#comment-7166
I volunteer to fact check.
I can’t read that forum , it’s too full of really bad advice.
Z
You can be the lead Fact checker LOL !
reposted here for Bzac
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f60/turpentine-smell-35954/#post395888
Which of these people know what they are talking about ? Hint it’s not the “supers”
They don’t even ask any questions before digging through the sofa cushions to get pennys ?!
That is a no brainer! The poster of who you speak is probably the only one there who knows what he is talking about. Too bad he is not here.
Holy Cow! references to Old Timers and Accuvin ML test strips in one post. http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f60/cold-stabilization-35635/
Now this is truly funny!
WOW!! Got dizzy reading all those possibilities. Personally, I’d bet on bottle shock myself! LOL.
I volunteer at times like these to defend our countr….. er passion.
Ok so let me ask a simple question. No genius Winemaking Chops needed. Just the ability to read the instructions. Posted on the package. YET http://www.winemakingtalk.com superiors have no clue. In fact they suggest their own procedure as Gospel. What a bunch of Jerks. http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/go-ferm-35846/
For those winemakers needing good advice. Read the directions on the packet. See it is that simple. You don’t need to validate on an asshole forum your ability to read.
WTF! And here I thought Malvina was past the PMS part of life. Silly me.
ROFLMAO The highest level attainable of expertise has now reached Winemakingtalk Forum. Yes now the Forum can rely on the expertise of Wineman2013. AKA Wineman2008 on Winepress.
And for his first bit of sage advice he adds this “Brett is pretty rare in a homewine making setting. Did you top up with something like an organic French wine? ”
I guess we are special, I never knew we were inoculated as Home Winemakers from getting Brett. I will have to remember to stay away from French Organic Wine.
In this rare case he is not out to lunch .
Home winemakers have less Brett vectors than a commercial setting ,
Used oak cooperage or brining in a Brett infected wine and topping up with it would be prime causes. As we don’t make the volumes that would raise the risk through biological accumulation.
Since the French wine industry has higher levels of Brett issues than most, (trust me I’ve drank enough of French Brett effected wine in the lastb2 years!) , and organic wines have no so2 ,
The risk of introducing spoilage organisms this way is real.
If Home winemakers have less Brett than that can be attributed to being in mostly carboys and not wood. But we all have had our share of Brett when we were using copious amounts of Dap in the past. I don’t think we are anymore immune. Maybe less of a chance. As far as the French wines I agree they have loads of Brett especially the Languedoc. I like some of that I must admit. Virginia hates it! But to me it is funny to suggest this guy has a Brett problem because of Organic French Wine. Anyway Wineman2013 will provide an immense contribution to an already wonderful forum. Things can only look up from here.
Alert!!! regardless of the website More Wine Pro has 63cm White Tank Bladders in stock. Finalmente! Received 2 this morning.
How does DAP contribute to Brett? Excess unused N available for the Brett? Is this still a potential problem if SO2 levels are optimized?
Some evidence does suggest this is the case. Of course looking back our SO2 Management was not the best as we did not have testing equipment we have now. But the presence of Brett, while only in acceptable French levels in some wines did seem to become more pronounced in subsequent vintages causing the barrel’s eventual replacement.
Brett is highly sensitive to so2 , yet another reason so2 at crush is a great idea.
And not using it at crush is , well , pretty stupid . Using so2 at crush greatly reduces this vector.
Using dap by the handful without the ability to measure yan is certainly a way to increase the risk of Brett as leftover nitrogen not metabolized by the yeast is leaving excess food for spoilage organisms like Brett. Combine that with poor so2 management and well you get what is coming to you.
So if you are a smart enough winemaker to eliminate these first three risk vectors for Brett , that leaves oak , sanitation and contamination.
As a home winemaker you have many less barrels so recycling multiple oak barrels is less common , and if you do you can be more vigilant on sanitation. Unlike those French wineries that use concrete fermenters and storage tanks from the 1920s you aren’t facing massive microbial loads because you are using glass , stainless or brute.
Shall I go on?
So while I wouldn’t say home wine makers are immune , I will say that a home winemaker who knows what he’s doing , uses good equipment and is vigilent about so2 use and sanitation and doesnt top up with risky wine is at much less risk of getting Brett.
So much so that if you get Brett , the chances are , it’s the winemakers fault , 95% of the time.
Buy good clean fruit , it’s more like 98%
I read some articles suggesting every wine making area has brett and all grapes/must/wine does too. They suggest that “Brett management” is the key. That is topped barrels and decent levels of SO2. In this situation, Brett will not grow to a level of sensory perception. Meanwhile, back at the Ranch, I tried an experiment with not opening or topping for 6 months on a barrel of wine (was looking for some controlled funk, don’t try this at home). Upon opening, I had some Brett. SO2 added, topped up, and bottled in 6 weeks. The wine is aging nicely with a faint touch of Brett that most don’t pick up. I can because I know its there but it tastes very good in a Rhone style wine. The wine is an ’09 and so far the bottles are drinking well. Things may change with age and naturally reduced free SO2. As a side note, the barrel was ProxyClean soaked, steam cleaned, SO2 gassed, and put back into service. No more Brett. While I think it was an interesting experiment, its not my usual practice.
Couple of things here. I did read the same that Brett exists on most grapes. Which gives reason as Zac says to SO2 at crush. Another thing here that is interesting is CCR saved the Barrel. This is not the conventional wisdom with Brett Barrels. So it is interesting that you can take some serious measures and save the barrel. I assume this is possible because CCR’s infection was not that severe.
Hey Gene, CCR was a rock band in 60′s-70′s. CRR agrees with you on both points. This was one of my coveted little 30gal neutral barrels. Even if I didn’t mind the replacement cost, I didn’t want a new 30. I hate managing oak on the small barrels, don’t know how you guy do it. Definitely one of the area making wine on a larger scale can be easier. The barrel steaming process is very cool for rejuvenating old barrels. If you get a chance to have a winery do this for you, jump all over it. They don’t claim that it kills all Brett, that’s why I gave it the cleaning trifecta of Proxy/steam/SO2. If it comes back, I’ll let you know.
CCR CRR Both are Rock Stars!!!
Not so much a Fact Check but why? do people go to these lengths to seal a barrel. Boiling water and rotating on the heads and all of that. All you have to do is fill the barrel with water. And wet the outstide of the barrel as well. Keep the hose running until it holds water and it is over flowing. Bung it and leave it. Check it in 8 hours and top it off. Leave it another 24 hours and top off if necessary and wait for the barrel to be completely dry on the outside. It could take up to 4 days for the process to be complete. Usually in 48 hours. Now for tough barrels ones that have been empty for a long time I like to wrap the barrel with clear plastic wrap after I wet it. The wrap keep the outside of the barrel wet speeding of the swelling not only from the inside but the outside as well. When the barrels does not need to be topped off , take off the wrap and let the outside dry. It really is not as hard as some people make it. http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f74/new-barrel-36013/
Gene that’s the way we do our Barells fill up with water but I use K-meta to go with it . Leave water in 3 to 4 days fill up as needed until it doesn’t leak anymore wella you have a sealed Barell. No hot water actuallyhot water is dirty anyway thats what I here from Plumbers.I think Zac uses the hot water method and inside the bathtub . No pun inteded zac.
Well I will tell you a story. Back in the day I had a sailboat made of fiberglass but there were many Wood Cabin Cruisers and a few Wood Sailboats in the Club. Imagine the thinking back then, the wood boat boys made fun of the fiberglass boys accusing them of owning a plastic boat. Only real boats were made of wood. Jesus you think they were direct descendents of Christopher Columbus! Any way every spring these tubs went in the water with bilge pumps running a full force just to keep the boats afloat. Sadly if a pump failed and they did on many occasions you an owner of one of these Classics would find there boat submerged at the dock.
I often think of this when I rehydrate a barrel.
A few years ago we received 2 60 gallon barrels from Re-Coop. They went to Anthony Forte’s house. We filled one of them last spring. These barrels were stored in the garage subject to varying humidity and extreme swings in temperature. Wetting this barrel and sealing it took on week. If would not hold water for 4 days. The first two days it leaked so bad the hose could not overflow the barrel. The hose ran for 4 days when finally it held water. It took another 3 days to dry up. Truly a Wooden Boat. Now it is dry as a bone and contains 60 gallons of Grand Pere Zinfandel.
With all the expectation and trepidation, I need a New Sixty for my 2011 Sonoma Cab Sav. Now keep in mind it is now 3 years since the ReCoop barrel was delivered, and yes it was in Anthony’s garage. And YES I expect this to be a nightmare. As I said above wrapped in plastic It was dried out and held water in 48 hours. Go figure. In any case much to do about nothing is written about hydrating barrels no matter the method other than a novice’s lack of patience.
By the way a new comment down the list by Curious George on ABV is posted. Anyone want to tackle the question ?????
Interesting comments on sealing the barrels. I broke in my first two barrels last year, and did the hot water inside, outside, on each head thing, because that’s what Sandor Vadai, from whom I got the barrels, told me to do. Not that big a PITA, and it worked beautifully for both barrels.
Next month I will be breaking in my two brand new “13 gallon” frenchies from M&M. I was going to do Sandor’s method, but it sounds like I should just do Gene’s.
I try to never pass up an opportunity to do it the easy way.
With a full sized barrel I add a couple tbsp of kmeta to take care of any chlorine in the municipal water then fill it up full. Top it up after a few hours and let it sit overnight.
Drain and fill with wine.
Small 15 gallon or smaller barrels can be a bit more difficult to seal , they tend to sit longer at suppliers so dry out.
Less of an issue now if you buy from a main supplier , but if they barrel has come from France or Hungary it might be.
I was one of vadais first home winemaker customers in those days Sandor (rip) didn’t sell many small ones. So they would be pretty dry.
So I put the barrel in the tub add a tsp kmeta and fill with hot water , add some kmeta to the tub and fill the tub .
Let it sit over night occasionally rotating the barrel to get the dry side wet.
Swelling the inside and the outside and the heads . It works very well.
Drain the tub, let the out side of the barrel dry to check for leaks and the drain and fill the barrel with wine.
We used to build sailing dingys with cork less lap strake hulls.
We’d build a hull , sink it in the lake for two days .
Pull it out , rig it and go sailing.
If I was faced with a recoop (great company) that had been dry stored for a long time , I’d consider tightening the bands before swelling the barrel . Pull any band nails out (if the barrel has any) tap the bands tighter with a chisel or hoop driver and a hammer .
(Reset band nails if any)
The swell the barrel . Recoop staves are shaved and thinner , so if the barrel has sat unused for a long time , tightening the bands will probably be needed.
For rejuvenating a suspect or just an older barrel soaking it full of hot water and percarbonate
Over night then draining it and soaking the barrel full of hot water , citric acid (to neutralize the percarbonate) and kmeta over night works well.
If you can then steam clean it , bonus!
The percarbonate will remove any tartrates and greatly reduce any microbs .
This is my standard treatment for a VA barrel .
I’ve never had Brett in my own wines but this should work.
Not a guaranteed cure for VA or Brett but certainly worth doing .
Unless the barrel is so badly infected it should be thrown away , but for minor Brett or va . Go for it.
I should note that once a barrel goes neutral , I do the percarbonate, citric treatment every other batch , just for microbial piece of mind.
I use stavin oak chains for oak flavour in these older barrels.
Z
All great info here. I should have added I also use a bit of K meta after 24 hours with a touch of citric.
I use about 5 grams per gallon citric and .5 g per gallon kmeta for the soak phase to neutralize the strong base of the percarbonate cleaner (proxy carb, proxy clean, barrel clean , it’s sold under many names , you can also use sodium or potassium percarbonate from chemical lab suppliers)
Z
There’s a nice article in wine maker magazine on wine Barells written by Ed kwiek how to pick and rehydrate Barells there 30 gallon Barells that he re hydrated with cold water and k- meta and only took 12 hours to do. Has anybody used mildewcide on there outer barells. The barells look nice and the mildewcide does not clog the pores on the barell they use it for looks and there no wine stains. I see that presque Island sells it.
Bzac and others mention BRETT.
Well I got BRETT … and have had for about 15-20 years now. Used to visit brewers in Belgium on a regular basis drinking and bringing home plenty of Lambic and other sour wonders. I also have a wonderful 15 gallon barrel of a belgian sour red beer complete with a pretty complex pellicle in my cellar and have been taking from and feeding to it since 2002. I also teach traditional cheese making and make lots of cheese in this same cellar. I have been bringing back cheese from all over Europe for over a dozen years so now have a pretty complex bios of lactic bacteria and molds. I also brew beer which is the real challenge from all of this and probably what keeps me on my toes.
My point is that I have also been making wine in Barrels as well for the past 10 years and yet to have any BRETT in my wines (just made about 10 prayers to Bachus for saying that).
Just goes to show that you can be swimming in the stuff but as long as you keep it where it belongs. The cellar has 5 separate rooms so I can keep things at distance and I am nuts on sanitizing and keeping separate sets of tubes and measures for each thing locked away in their own chambers. I also keep several days clean up and sanitized between processes whether they are make or transfer (more so if making beer because everything likes to live in beer).
I remember at one time Vinnie Cilurso from russian river brewing showing me a fire pit just outside the door because being “Mr Wild Beer Man” the vintners were always afraid to come to his place in Santa Rosa due to cross contamination so he told them to bring a change of clothes and burn what they wore before leaving.